thinking out loud

Discussions regarding modifying your tractor

The image at left is Grummy's stretched frame and highly modified tractor.

thinking out loud

Postby greg » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:18 am

Good Morning
Well I am at a stand still with my tractor... Ran out of sand and the parts store is out also .. (and really should hit the books but I have tractor on the brain...) I have been thinking about my loader and pump issues etc...
Look at the attached pic... I have a reservoir right on the loader and I was thinking about making an adapter (mount) on the frt of the engine so I could mount a pump up (with quick connect) and it would be plumbed to the loader separately from the tractor. This would be driven by the Electric Clutch that I am installing.

And after LOTS of reading etc... I think I will be able to tie the steering into the original hyd without affecting it... Worse come to worse I can just use a little larger pump...
Just in taking the tractor apart ETC there is quit a rats nest of hoses in there... Some WAY longer then they need to be...

I AM SO ANXIOUS TO BE ASSEMBLING AGAIN
Attachments
Loader  (1).jpg
Greg from Maine

Not trying to re-invent the wheel, just trying to make it roll better.....
Current projects... 1964 Wheelhorse 864...1979 Case 446
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thinking out loud

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Re: thinking out loud

Postby ArticIngerCase » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:52 pm

Greg,
Here's a couple more things for you to think about. I built a loader for my Ingersoll 4016, before I integrated it into my articulated tractor. I welded a piece of solid steel 1" X 3" to the frame, just under the foot rests. I also made a "U" shaped piece of 3/8" flat and angle and mounted to the front of the tractor, just below the hood hinge. I used the hydraulic PTO with quick disconnects to run the whole thing. No need for any auxiliary tank, larger pump, or anything. The whole thing attached with 6 ea. 1/2" bolts. I made a pulley system in the garage using a boat winch and a couple of pulleys to raise it up off of the tractor when not in use. It took only about 5 minutes to take it on and off. I'll post what pics I can find. I hope this helps your conundrum.

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Scott in Central PA
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Re: thinking out loud

Postby RolFarrar » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:18 pm

If it were me, I would go for an 11 gpm pump and split 3 gpm off with a priority valve, for steering and the loader. If you take off from a standard pump for the steering, you will be robbing the drive train and any implements running off the pto. This way, there is no need for a second pump off the front of the engine, interfering with the electric pto, and no second pump to buy. I would just remove the tank on the loader and clean it up!

Scott's experience is pretty much right on, except he is ignoring the PS. It is essential to have a priority feed to the PS! You don't want to loose your steering at a critical time! Since you need the priority valve for the steering, incorporating it with the loader eliminates all drive interferance. That is the system used on the loader tractors, and has proven to work very well.
Rol

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Re: thinking out loud

Postby grummy » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:40 pm

Ya, but...
I just wanted to interject that other than the power steering, which indeed needs its own dedicated flow to work correctly, I believe you can steal as much fluid volume as you want for the loader, as long as you can accept overall slower travel speeds or slowdowns while your using the loader ? I always assumed that if your driving along at rate X, if you crack open the loaders main valve, Rate X changes....... You slow down.

There can be even more issues when you connect the loader circuit strictly to the PTO as well, the most glaring is that if you happen to be going up a big hill with the tractor, the PTO valve circuit will NOT have a free flowing low pressure circuit in it at all. This means that any loader use will be erratic while pressures remain high in the return lines of the loader circuit, because we are attempting to dump the low side back into a temporarily high side.

I think nothing will work quite as nice as a travel valve with the Power Beyond port (like 600 series valves), and the low/return side of the loader circuit dumped right back in before the cooler.

Perhaps ArticIngerCase can elaborate on how exactly his original loader setup worked. I think overall on the relatively level, it can work ok, but not so much if the rear axle gets loaded. The same issue exists when you add more travel valves to the original circuit.
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Re: thinking out loud

Postby greg » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:56 pm

Just noticed by looking at the 6000 Series manual that they had dual op pump.. Which is way cool... I just want to do this right from the get go because fiddle farting after the fact is never fun.. Especially with fresh paint etc... Do you think I would have room for 2 pump back there or would a larger pump and a priority valve as ROL suggested...
Just got my spindles back and he is doing the axle upgrade now.. I will post pics of the spindles when I get the welds cleaned up.... All I can say he is NOT cheap... But he does good work... Hopefully he thinks of me when he cant do machining anymore...
Attachments
Prority valve_2.jpg
Prority valve_1.jpg
Greg from Maine

Not trying to re-invent the wheel, just trying to make it roll better.....
Current projects... 1964 Wheelhorse 864...1979 Case 446
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Re: thinking out loud

Postby RolFarrar » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:20 pm

Seems I had a post go missing. My comment was that I don't want to lose either power nor speed when I am trying to fill the bucket! So, keeping the drive gpm where it belongs becomes a priority for me, thus a priority valve for the steering and the loader. The 6000 series does thids with a double pump.( two pumps in one) The problem with that is that it is a much larger pump them you are likely to get under the counsel. That is why I suggest an 11 gpm pump. 4 gpm will handle the 6000 & 7000 series tractors, I think 3 gpm would be more than adequate for a 400 series loader and steering.
Rol

Things turn out the best for the ones who make the best of the way things turn out.
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Re: thinking out loud

Postby grummy » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:44 pm

And..... I dont think your going to find room for a double pump in there... not without a frame stretch. Your steering shaft already comes pretty close to the pump if my minds eye serves correctly.
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Re: thinking out loud

Postby greg » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:36 am

Thanks for the responses.. I know for a fact that I cannot get a dual pump in back there because of the PS gear.. I did free up some room when I removed the PTO rod and once I convert to foot pedal I will free up some more room.. I just need an extra 3 or 4 inches... HMMMM and I am NOT stretching it.. Just the extra hoses for all the stuff will be a nightmare enough.. But I am waiting for Boomer for the engine stuff... HE performed me a miracle ... He has all the big parts for me.. I am putting a 18 hp crank and rod in.. Boring it at 20...
Just anxious to start it and run it.... I NEVER heard this tractor run.... so I have no idea what I have or any inclination that this tractir is worth what I am doing it... I have faith in YOU guy and the tractor so CASE please dont fail me now...

LOL

Greg
Greg from Maine

Not trying to re-invent the wheel, just trying to make it roll better.....
Current projects... 1964 Wheelhorse 864...1979 Case 446
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Re: thinking out loud

Postby RolFarrar » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:26 am

Gregg,
You are headed in the correct direction to accomplish your goals! As long as the funds don't run outI really feel that you will be happy with the end result! :lol: ;)
Rol

Things turn out the best for the ones who make the best of the way things turn out.
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Re: thinking out loud

Postby greg » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:31 pm

Rol
If I cant stretch the dollar I stretch the job out ... Boomer just made me an awesome deal and will save me some machine shop time and labor.. A clean P220 crank, piston, rods and cover... So the only machine will be boring and valves job...

Greg
Greg from Maine

Not trying to re-invent the wheel, just trying to make it roll better.....
Current projects... 1964 Wheelhorse 864...1979 Case 446
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greg
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:25 am
Location: Fort Kent Maine

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